Are the limits of control surface movements produced by setting trim to its
extremes also usually the absolute limits of travel for those surfaces, or is
it usually possible to move them further with movement of the yoke? Or does
this vary significantly from one aircraft design to another?

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 12:02:37 +0200, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

>Are the limits of control surface movements produced by setting trim to its
>extremes also usually the absolute limits of travel for those surfaces, or is
>it usually possible to move them further with movement of the yoke? Or does
>this vary significantly from one aircraft design to another?

you are plain and simple a clueless ****wit.
if you had any intelligence you would have gone out in the real world
and looked at an aeroplane.

trim has nothing to do with the movement limits on control surfaces.

control surfaces are limited by things called "stops". essentially
they are adjustable bolts. it is usual for them never to be changed
once the aircraft is initially set up for flight. they are designed to
positively stop further movement of the surface.

here is a question you can research.

what aerodynamic consideration is in the mind of the designer when
they set up the maximum movement of a control surface?

your inability to find an acceptable answer by your own non-internet
research will confirm to you that you are a retard.

oxygen is a valuable resource. please stop wasting it.
Stealth Pilot

Robert Moore > wrote in
46.128:

> Mxsmanic wrote
>> Are the limits of control surface movements produced by setting trim
>> to its extremes also usually the absolute limits of travel for those
>> surfaces, or is it usually possible to move them further with movement
>> of the yoke? Or does this vary significantly from one aircraft design
>> to another?
>
> I have never flown or seen an airplane where the trim systen could cause
> full control deflection ....not even close.
>

I've flown a few that couldn't even be trimmed for slow flight or approach
( pre war stuff) The trim was apparently only considered to be useful for
cruise.


Bertie

Robert Moore writes:

> I have never flown or seen an airplane where the trim systen could cause
> full control deflection ....not even close.

Thanks.

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

> I've flown a few that couldn't even be trimmed for slow flight or approach
> ( pre war stuff) The trim was apparently only considered to be useful for
> cruise.

Interesting. I was flying my simulated Cessna 182 and it didn't seem like the
pitch trim fully deflected the elevators even with the trim all the way over
(that is, I could still move the yoke to get even further deflection). It
sounds like this is true to life.

Specifically, I've been trying to practice slow flight, but it seems to be
really hard to get the aircraft anywhere near its minimum speed. During the
course of this practice I noticed that even trimming for full nose up didn't
seem to actually get the aircraft down towards the bottom of the green band,
so I was wondering if it were really possible to trim it that far. It doesn't
sound like it is. I'll have to try holding the yoke to fly really slowly.

> Specifically, I've been trying to practice slow flight, but it seems to be
> really hard to get the aircraft anywhere near its minimum speed. During
> the
> course of this practice I noticed that even trimming for full nose up
> didn't
> seem to actually get the aircraft down towards the bottom of the green
> band,
> so I was wondering if it were really possible to trim it that far. It
> doesn't
> sound like it is. I'll have to try holding the yoke to fly really slowly.

That's a limitation of the sim. Even in our "Penguin" (see it here:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/flight_simulator.htm ) which comes as close to
simulating real flight as you can get without spending an absurd amount of
money, slow flight is difficult even for experienced pilots.

When doing slow flight in a real airplane you have many sensory cues that
are missing in the sim. The peculiar feeling of hanging on the prop, the
increased angle of attack, the different sounds -- they're missing from the
sim.

With practice slow flight can be done in MSFS (and, yes, the trim is
important) but it's all got to be done on the gauges. If you have a second
screen for the instrument panel, that helps.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck writes:

> With practice slow flight can be done in MSFS (and, yes, the trim is
> important) but it's all got to be done on the gauges. If you have a second
> screen for the instrument panel, that helps.

I'm not sure I understand: Are you saying that you can do slow flight in the
sim as in the real aircraft, except that you have to do it by instruments, or
are you saying that the sim doesn't correctly simulate slow flight at all
(i.e., it can't be done)?

Also, are you using the default aircraft or have you installed add-on
aircraft? For the Cessna I'm flying, I use Carenado's Cessna 182RG II
simulation, which is supposedly pretty good (vastly better than the default
Cessna, of course).

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Are the limits of control surface movements produced by setting trim to its
> extremes also usually the absolute limits of travel for those surfaces, or is
> it usually possible to move them further with movement of the yoke? Or does
> this vary significantly from one aircraft design to another?
I don't have any actual figures handy, but my answer would be no. You
should have movement on the major control surface available beyond the
max trim limits.

--
Dudley Henriques

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>
>> I've flown a few that couldn't even be trimmed for slow flight or
>> approach ( pre war stuff) The trim was apparently only considered to
>> be useful for cruise.
>
> Interesting. I was flying my simulated Cessna 182 and it didn't seem
> like the pitch trim fully deflected the elevators even with the trim
> all the way over (that is, I could still move the yoke to get even
> further deflection). It sounds like this is true to life.

Nothing about a sim is true to life. It's a toy. Different airplanes have
different authorits. i can loop my Citabira with the pitch trim.


Bertie

On Apr 27, 12:09*am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
> > I've flown a few that couldn't even be trimmed for slow flight or approach
> > ( pre war stuff) The trim was apparently only considered to be useful for
> > cruise.
>
> Interesting. *I was flying my simulated Cessna 182 and it didn't seem like the
> pitch trim fully deflected the elevators even with the trim all the way over
> (that is, I could still move the yoke to get even further deflection). *It
> sounds like this is true to life.
>

Look at the size of a trim surface and the size of the elevator. Think
about which one is more powerful. You can't stall a 182 with full
trim, but you can with the yoke. OK?

Cheers

On Apr 27, 12:09*am, Mxsmanic > wrote:

> Interesting. *I was flying my simulated Cessna 182

> Specifically, I've been trying to practice slow flight, but it seems to be
> really hard to get the aircraft anywhere near its minimum speed. *During the
> course of this practice I noticed that even trimming for full nose up didn't
> seem to actually get the aircraft down towards the bottom of the green band,
> so I was wondering if it were really possible to trim it that far. *

Did you close the throttle? If you did and it won't trim to 65 knots
it's a crap simulation.

Cheers

Stealth Pilot wrote:
/snip/
> trim has nothing to do with the movement limits on control surfaces.
>
/snip/

Stealth,

This is not universally true. On the Douglas DC-6, for instance,
elevator "up" travel is limited by the elevator trim position. Dialing
in the last 5 degrees of nose up trim allows an extra 3 degrees of
elevator "up" travel. This was done to limit elevator "up" movement
with aft CG loading conditions.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

On Apr 26, 7:58 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Jay Honeck writes:
> > With practice slow flight can be done in MSFS (and, yes, the trim is
> > important) but it's all got to be done on the gauges. If you have a second
> > screen for the instrument panel, that helps.
>
> I'm not sure I understand: Are you saying that you can do slow flight in the
> sim as in the real aircraft, except that you have to do it by instruments, or
> are you saying that the sim doesn't correctly simulate slow flight at all
> (i.e., it can't be done)?
>
> Also, are you using the default aircraft or have you installed add-on
> aircraft? For the Cessna I'm flying, I use Carenado's Cessna 182RG II
> simulation, which is supposedly pretty good (vastly better than the default
> Cessna, of course).

The 182RG, the REAL airplane, has enough pitch trim to maintain slow
flight just above the stall.

Dan

On Apr 26, 11:33 am, WingFlaps > wrote:

> Look at the size of a trim surface and the size of the elevator. Think
> about which one is more powerful. You can't stall a 182 with full
> trim, but you can with the yoke. OK?
>
> Cheers


Don't give the impression that the trim tab is doing the flying. It's
not. Trim tab down moves the elevator up, and the elevator controls
the pitch. With some power applied the airplane could stall. Power
off, not likely; just a slow glide. The 182 has one of the most
powerful trims I've come across, apart from the 180/185 stabilizer
trim system that will keep you very busy in an overshoot.

Dan

writes:

> The 182RG, the REAL airplane, has enough pitch trim to maintain slow
> flight just above the stall.

I'll continue to experiment.

WingFlaps writes:

> Did you close the throttle? If you did and it won't trim to 65 knots
> it's a crap simulation.

I haven't practiced much so far, but I've set the throttle fairly low. Maybe
I'll try some experiments this afternoon (SoCal time).

On Apr 27, 6:14*am, wrote:
> On Apr 26, 11:33 am, WingFlaps > wrote:
>
> > Look at the size of a trim surface and the size of the elevator. Think
> > about which one is more powerful. You can't stall a 182 with full
> > trim, but you can with the yoke. OK?
>
> > Cheers
>
> *Don't give the impression that the trim tab is doing the flying. It's
> not. Trim tab down moves the elevator up, and the elevator controls
> the pitch.

The idea was that if he looked at the area of the trim tab he would
realize it cannot generate full surface deflection. I've not tried
winding in full trim with power on to see if a stall results. I would
have guessed that Mr Cessna would not make the trim that powerful...

Cheers

>With some power applied the airplane could stall. Power
> off, not likely; just a slow glide. The 182 has one of the most
> powerful trims I've come across, apart from the 180/185 stabilizer
> trim system that will keep you very busy in an overshoot.
>
> * * *Dan

I just tried a few experiments.

Wind zero, clear skies, at 6000 feet MSL, engine idle, trim full nose up.
With 20 gallons in the tanks and no payload (something that would be
impossible to try in real life), as I pull back on the yoke, the stall horn
sounds at 43 KIAS, just like the book says, and a stall begins as soon as the
speed falls any further. With full tanks, 480 lbs payload, and idle throttle,
the horn sounds at 50 KIAS, using the same method. At full throttle, same
full tanks and 480 lbs of payload, again carefully pulling the yoke back, the
horn won't sound until about 45 KIAS.

Does that sound right?

On Apr 27, 7:03*am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> I just tried a few experiments.
>
> Wind zero, clear skies, at 6000 feet MSL, engine idle, trim full nose up.
> With 20 gallons in the tanks and no payload (something that would be
> impossible to try in real life)

Not impossible, you could jump out...

Cheers

On Apr 27, 7:03*am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> I just tried a few experiments

No, that doesn't sound right.
The stall horn is supposed to sound before the stall speed is reached.

Cheers

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> The 182RG, the REAL airplane, has enough pitch trim to maintain slow
>> flight just above the stall.
>
> I'll continue to experiment.
>

The trim on sims behaves nothing like it does in the real airplane almost
to the point of having a different purpose.


Bertie

wrote in news:3296b365-96bd-4b26-a9ba-
:

> On Apr 26, 11:33 am, WingFlaps > wrote:
>
>> Look at the size of a trim surface and the size of the elevator. Think
>> about which one is more powerful. You can't stall a 182 with full
>> trim, but you can with the yoke. OK?
>>
>> Cheers
>
>
> Don't give the impression that the trim tab is doing the flying. It's
> not. Trim tab down moves the elevator up, and the elevator controls
> the pitch. With some power applied the airplane could stall. Power
> off, not likely; just a slow glide. The 182 has one of the most
> powerful trims I've come across, apart from the 180/185 stabilizer
> trim system that will keep you very busy in an overshoot.
>

Actually, there are plenty of airplanes with tabs not much bigger than trim
tabs that use them to fly the airplane. There is no connection whatsoever
between the surface and the stick. All done by the tab. I don;'t think
anyone is making any of them these days. Last new design I can think of is
the DC-8.



Bertie

WingFlaps writes:

> No, that doesn't sound right.
> The stall horn is supposed to sound before the stall speed is reached.

It does, but only a second or two before (assuming that airspeed is still
falling). If I take remedial action instantly the stall does not occur.

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> WingFlaps writes:
>
>> No, that doesn't sound right.
>> The stall horn is supposed to sound before the stall speed is reached.
>
> It does, but only a second or two before (assuming that airspeed is still
> falling). If I take remedial action instantly the stall does not occur.
>

A stall will never occur. Computers don;'t stal.


Bertie

Buttman > wrote in
:

> WingFlaps wrote:
>
>> On Apr 27, 7:03Â*am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>>> I just tried a few experiments
>>
>> No, that doesn't sound right.
>> The stall horn is supposed to sound before the stall speed is
>> reached.
>>
>> Cheers
>
> "supposed to", but doesn't always. I've flown planes (especially
> cessnas with their crappy cereal-box-toy-quality plastic stall horns)
> that don't go off at all, but will test fine on the ground.
>

What, you didn't stick chewing gum in them to fail them so your students
would learn what it was like when they failed?

Bertie

Buttman > wrote in news:4813a805$0$30167
:

> Stealth Pilot wrote:
>
>> oxygen is a valuable resource. please stop wasting it.
>> Stealth Pilot
>
> someones grumpy...
>

There you go again. There's a deserving cockroach not getting his fair
share.


Bertie

Buttman > wrote in news:4813aa40$0$30228
:

> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>
>> Buttman > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> WingFlaps wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Apr 27, 7:03Â*am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>>>>> I just tried a few experiments
>>>>
>>>> No, that doesn't sound right.
>>>> The stall horn is supposed to sound before the stall speed is
>>>> reached.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> "supposed to", but doesn't always. I've flown planes (especially
>>> cessnas with their crappy cereal-box-toy-quality plastic stall horns)
>>> that don't go off at all, but will test fine on the ground.
>>>
>>
>> What, you didn't stick chewing gum in them to fail them so your students
>> would learn what it was like when they failed?
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Oh bertie, you're such a card
>
I know. And you're such an idiot.


Bertie

On Apr 26, 1:50 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> Actually, there are plenty of airplanes with tabs not much bigger than trim
> tabs that use them to fly the airplane. There is no connection whatsoever
> between the surface and the stick. All done by the tab. I don;'t think
> anyone is making any of them these days. Last new design I can think of is
> the DC-8.
>
> Bertie

Servo tabs. Sometimes with a spring onto the surface itself, for
low-speed control, and sometimes with no connection other than the
tab's hinge to the surface. But it does move the control surface,
which is what controls the airplane. The tab itself doesn't fly the
airplane. It actually moves in the opposite direction to the surface.

On Apr 26, 12:37 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:

> The idea was that if he looked at the area of the trim tab he would
> realize it cannot generate full surface deflection. I've not tried
> winding in full trim with power on to see if a stall results. I would
> have guessed that Mr Cessna would not make the trim that powerful...

It's that powerful. With the trim centered, at full power, you're in
a climb. Rolling in full up trim will make the climb steep enough to
stall the airplane.

Dan

wrote in
:

> On Apr 26, 1:50 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> Actually, there are plenty of airplanes with tabs not much bigger
>> than trim tabs that use them to fly the airplane. There is no
>> connection whatsoever between the surface and the stick. All done by
>> the tab. I don;'t think anyone is making any of them these days. Last
>> new design I can think of is the DC-8.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Servo tabs. Sometimes with a spring onto the surface itself, for
> low-speed control, and sometimes with no connection other than the
> tab's hinge to the surface. But it does move the control surface,
> which is what controls the airplane. The tab itself doesn't fly the
> airplane. It actually moves in the opposite direction to the surface.
>

That's right. Lots of biggies used them in the old days. There are also
balance which just aid a conventionally controlled surface in a similar
way. Those I have flown. Generally htey also have a spring tab which is
adjacent and gears down the action of the servo or balance tab. Without the
spring tab the servo or balance tab would make the control surface more
sensitive at higher speeds, so the spring tab acts as a kind of artificial
feel.


Bertie

> wrote ...
> WingFlaps wrote:
>> I've not tried winding in full trim with power on to see
>> if a stall results. I would have guessed that Mr Cessna
>> would not make the trim that powerful...
>
> It's that powerful. With the trim centered, at full power,
> you're in a climb. Rolling in full up trim will make the climb
> steep enough to stall the airplane.

Looked at another way, if I trim on base and again on final, I will need two
hands pushing the yoke forward if I mosh the throttle for a go-around (until
I retrim for climbout). My guess is I would stall quite dramatically if I
didn't.

On Apr 27, 11:42*am, "Mike Isaksen" > wrote:
> > wrote ...
>
> > *WingFlaps *wrote:
> >> I've not tried winding in full trim with power on to see
> >> if a stall results. I would have guessed that Mr Cessna
> >> would not make the trim that powerful...
>
> > *It's that powerful. With the trim centered, at full power,
> > you're in a climb. Rolling in full up trim will make the climb
> > steep enough to stall the airplane.
>
> Looked at another way, if I trim on base and again on final, I will need two
> hands pushing the yoke forward if I mosh the throttle for a go-around (until
> I retrim for climbout). My guess is I would stall quite dramatically if I
> didn't.

OK I wasn't thinking about full power, just cruise where I was
thinking a nose high mush developing and air speed about 50 knots.

Cheers

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:42:12 GMT, "Mike Isaksen"
> wrote:

>
>Looked at another way, if I trim on base and again on final, I will need two
>hands pushing the yoke forward if I mosh the throttle for a go-around (until
>I retrim for climbout). My guess is I would stall quite dramatically if I
>didn't.


My Beech is no different.

writes:

> With the trim centered, at full power, you're in
> a climb. Rolling in full up trim will make the climb steep enough to
> stall the airplane.

That's what I see in the sim. Full power and trim set at the take-off notch
takes me into a a steep climb after take-off. With just me and full tanks it
seems to do better than 1500 fpm, at least for a while. Some sources say that
MSFS exaggerates initial climb rates; I don't know if that is true here
(add-on aircraft are usually more rigorous). Seems like a lot for a small
piston single.

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> With the trim centered, at full power, you're in
>> a climb. Rolling in full up trim will make the climb steep enough to
>> stall the airplane.
>
> That's what I see in the sim. Full power and trim set at the take-off
> notch takes me into a a steep climb after take-off. With just me and
> full tanks it seems to do better than 1500 fpm, at least for a while.
> Some sources say that MSFS exaggerates initial climb rates; I don't
> know if that is true here (add-on aircraft are usually more rigorous).
> Seems like a lot for a small piston single.
>

You are dumber than **** Anthony. Try reading what the poster put in
before fantasizing about your sim. Try flying a small single before
pontificating about its capabilities. YOU DON'T KNOW **** FROM SHINOLA.

If you show significant climb rate with a single piston your sim is
smoking tobacco substitute.

On Apr 26, 9:53*pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:
> > With the trim centered, at full power, you're in
> > a climb. Rolling in full up trim will make the climb steep enough to
> > stall the airplane.
>
> That's what I see in the sim. *Full power and trim set at the take-off notch
> takes me into a a steep climb after take-off. *With just me and full tanks it
> seems to do better than 1500 fpm, at least for a while. *Some sources say that
> MSFS exaggerates initial climb rates; I don't know if that is true here
> (add-on aircraft are usually more rigorous). *Seems like a lot for a small
> piston single.

On Apr 26, 3:56 pm, Buttman > wrote:

> "supposed to", but doesn't always. I've flown planes (especially cessnas
> with their crappy cereal-box-toy-quality plastic stall horns) that don't go
> off at all, but will test fine on the ground.

That's not hard to fix. The plastic fitting inside the leading
edge cracks and leaks. Sometimes the sun's heat warps and shrinks the
fitting so that it no longer seals against the LE and leaks at that
point, too. Any leakage will kill the horn. The horn itself has a
little replaceable reed in it, costs something like 79 cents from
Cessna. And I think that leaky cabin doors sometimes have something to
do with it; the horn uses suction to drive it, and a leaky door (among
other things) can drop the cabin pressure a little, reducing the
differential so that the horn doesn't sound well. The older and better
system (still used on more expensive Cessnas and other airplanes) has
the vane that works a $300 microswitch assembly to fire an electric
horn. The microswitch gets dust in it and doesn't contact properly, so
you soak it in some brake cleaner or isopropyl and blow it out,
clicking it all the while.

Dan

On Apr 26, 5:29 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> wrote :
>
>
>
> > On Apr 26, 1:50 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
> >> Actually, there are plenty of airplanes with tabs not much bigger
> >> than trim tabs that use them to fly the airplane. There is no
> >> connection whatsoever between the surface and the stick. All done by
> >> the tab. I don;'t think anyone is making any of them these days. Last
> >> new design I can think of is the DC-8.
>
> >> Bertie
>
> > Servo tabs. Sometimes with a spring onto the surface itself, for
> > low-speed control, and sometimes with no connection other than the
> > tab's hinge to the surface. But it does move the control surface,
> > which is what controls the airplane. The tab itself doesn't fly the
> > airplane. It actually moves in the opposite direction to the surface.
>
> That's right. Lots of biggies used them in the old days. There are also
> balance which just aid a conventionally controlled surface in a similar
> way. Those I have flown. Generally htey also have a spring tab which is
> adjacent and gears down the action of the servo or balance tab. Without the
> spring tab the servo or balance tab would make the control surface more
> sensitive at higher speeds, so the spring tab acts as a kind of artificial
> feel.
>
> Bertie

A good description of servo tabs:
http://history.nasa.gov/monograph12/ch6.htm
Click on figure 6.2 to get a decent picture.

Balance tab:
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/control/TH28G6.jpg

Antiservo tab:
http://www2.tech.purdue.edu/at/courses/aeml/airframeimages/antiservotab.jpg

Bar tab:
http://www.geographia.com/antiguanews/messages/7/5609.jpg

Dan

On Apr 26, 1:24 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> Mxsmanic > wrote :
>
> > WingFlaps writes:
>
> >> No, that doesn't sound right.
> >> The stall horn is supposed to sound before the stall speed is reached.
>
> > It does, but only a second or two before (assuming that airspeed is still
> > falling). If I take remedial action instantly the stall does not occur.
>
> A stall will never occur. Computers don;'t stal.
>
> Bertie

Pretty close, though. Microsoft stuff has a reputation for slowing
down, and crashing. That could be a stall simulation....

wrote in
:

> On Apr 26, 5:29 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> wrote
>> innews:130b251b-ab31-48e8-aa1d-

>> om:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 26, 1:50 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>> >> Actually, there are plenty of airplanes with tabs not much bigger
>> >> than trim tabs that use them to fly the airplane. There is no
>> >> connection whatsoever between the surface and the stick. All done
>> >> by the tab. I don;'t think anyone is making any of them these
>> >> days. Last new design I can think of is the DC-8.
>>
>> >> Bertie
>>
>> > Servo tabs. Sometimes with a spring onto the surface itself,
>> > for
>> > low-speed control, and sometimes with no connection other than the
>> > tab's hinge to the surface. But it does move the control surface,
>> > which is what controls the airplane. The tab itself doesn't fly the
>> > airplane. It actually moves in the opposite direction to the
>> > surface.
>>
>> That's right. Lots of biggies used them in the old days. There are
>> also balance which just aid a conventionally controlled surface in a
>> similar way. Those I have flown. Generally htey also have a spring
>> tab which is adjacent and gears down the action of the servo or
>> balance tab. Without the spring tab the servo or balance tab would
>> make the control surface more sensitive at higher speeds, so the
>> spring tab acts as a kind of artificial feel.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> A good description of servo tabs:
> http://history.nasa.gov/monograph12/ch6.htm
> Click on figure 6.2 to get a decent picture.
>
> Balance tab:
> http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/control/TH2
8
> G6.jpg
>
> Antiservo tab:
> http://www2.tech.purdue.edu/at/courses/aeml/airframeimages/antiservota
b
> .jpg
>
> Bar tab:
> http://www.geographia.com/antiguanews/messages/7/5609.jpg
>


Heh heh.

Bertie

wrote in
:

> On Apr 26, 1:24 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> Mxsmanic > wrote
>> :
>>
>> > WingFlaps writes:
>>
>> >> No, that doesn't sound right.
>> >> The stall horn is supposed to sound before the stall speed is
>> >> reached.
>>
>> > It does, but only a second or two before (assuming that airspeed is
>> > still falling). If I take remedial action instantly the stall does
>> > not occur.
>>
>> A stall will never occur. Computers don;'t stal.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Pretty close, though. Microsoft stuff has a reputation for slowing
> down, and crashing. That could be a stall simulation....
>

Groan!


Bertie

Tina writes:

> If you show significant climb rate with a single piston your sim is
> smoking tobacco substitute.

How much is significant, and which single pistons?

On Apr 28, 1:16*am, Clark > wrote:
> WingFlaps > wrote in news:1cd20dfa-3cfb-489a-9fee-
> :
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 27, 6:14*am, wrote:
> >> On Apr 26, 11:33 am, WingFlaps > wrote:
>
> >> > Look at the size of a trim surface and the size of the elevator. Think
> >> > about which one is more powerful. You can't stall a 182 with full
> >> > trim, but you can with the yoke. OK?
>
> >> > Cheers
>
> >> *Don't give the impression that the trim tab is doing the flying. It's
> >> not. Trim tab down moves the elevator up, and the elevator controls
> >> the pitch.
>
> > The idea was that if he looked at the area of the trim tab he would
> > realize it cannot generate full surface deflection. I've not tried
> > winding in full trim with power on to see if a stall results. I would
> > have guessed that Mr Cessna would not make the trim that powerful...
>
> The trim stall is on the Jeppesen syllabus to be demonstrated as part of PPL
> training...
>

Yes that's for full power which is not what I was thinking MX was
talking about.

Cheers

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Tina writes:
>
>> If you show significant climb rate with a single piston your sim is
>> smoking tobacco substitute.
>
> How much is significant,

However many you are smoking, it's obviously too much.


Bertie

Umm..

A guy here is bulding a plane called a "Rocket" (similar to an RV,
single engine piston).

Specs indicate it has an ROC of 3000 fpm..

With the freakin engine they are shoehorning in it, it will be
ballistic.

That's not "significant"?

:)

Dave





Thats not On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 07:07:56 -0700 (PDT), Tina
> wrote:

>If you show significant climb rate with a single piston your sim is
>smoking tobacco substitute.

On Apr 27, 6:58 pm, Dave > wrote:
> Umm..
>
> A guy here is bulding a plane called a "Rocket" (similar to an RV,
> single engine piston).
>
> Specs indicate it has an ROC of 3000 fpm..
>
> With the freakin engine they are shoehorning in it, it will be
> ballistic.
>
> That's not "significant"?
>
> :)
>
> Dave
>
> Thats not On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 07:07:56 -0700 (PDT), Tina
>
> > wrote:
> >If you show significant climb rate with a single piston your sim is
> >smoking tobacco substitute.

Harmon Rocket. I've seen one fly. Makes almost any other
piston single look anemic.
http://www.harmonrocket.com/specsprofnew.htm

Dan

That's the one, and this one is getting ALL the toys... nothing being
spared, and the the engine is being "breathed upon" as well :)

Actually, I find there are several (SEL, piston) that will do 2000
FPM +.

Dave


On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 19:23:15 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>
> Harmon Rocket. I've seen one fly. Makes almost any other
>piston single look anemic.
>http://www.harmonrocket.com/specsprofnew.htm
>
> Dan

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
.. .
> Mxsmanic > wrote in
> :
>
>> writes:
>>
>>> The 182RG, the REAL airplane, has enough pitch trim to maintain slow
>>> flight just above the stall.
>>
>> I'll continue to experiment.
>>
>
> The trim on sims behaves nothing like it does in the real airplane almost
> to the point of having a different purpose.
>
>
> Bertie

Coaching your little brother a bit. How nice! Did you two kiss and make up?

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
.. .
> Mxsmanic > wrote in
> :
>
>> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>>
>>> I've flown a few that couldn't even be trimmed for slow flight or
>>> approach ( pre war stuff) The trim was apparently only considered to
>>> be useful for cruise.
>>
>> Interesting. I was flying my simulated Cessna 182 and it didn't seem
>> like the pitch trim fully deflected the elevators even with the trim
>> all the way over (that is, I could still move the yoke to get even
>> further deflection). It sounds like this is true to life.
>
> Nothing about a sim is true to life. It's a toy. Different airplanes have
> different authorits. i can loop my Citabira with the pitch trim.
>
>
> Bertie

YEAH!!!! Sure ya can lamer.

"Buttman" > wrote in message
...
> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>
>> Buttman > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> WingFlaps wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Apr 27, 7:03 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>>>>> I just tried a few experiments
>>>>
>>>> No, that doesn't sound right.
>>>> The stall horn is supposed to sound before the stall speed is
>>>> reached.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> "supposed to", but doesn't always. I've flown planes (especially
>>> cessnas with their crappy cereal-box-toy-quality plastic stall horns)
>>> that don't go off at all, but will test fine on the ground.
>>>
>>
>> What, you didn't stick chewing gum in them to fail them so your students
>> would learn what it was like when they failed?
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Oh bertie, you're such a card

Na, not really. Just a self made prick.

"Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in
:

>
> "Buttman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>
>>> Buttman > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> WingFlaps wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 27, 7:03 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>>>>>> I just tried a few experiments
>>>>>
>>>>> No, that doesn't sound right.
>>>>> The stall horn is supposed to sound before the stall speed is
>>>>> reached.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> "supposed to", but doesn't always. I've flown planes (especially
>>>> cessnas with their crappy cereal-box-toy-quality plastic stall
>>>> horns) that don't go off at all, but will test fine on the ground.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What, you didn't stick chewing gum in them to fail them so your
>>> students would learn what it was like when they failed?
>>>
>>> Bertie
>>
>> Oh bertie, you're such a card
>
> Na, not really. Just a self made prick.
>

Moi? never. Nope. I just treat people exactly as the expect to be
treated.


Fjukktard.


Bertie

"Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in
:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Mxsmanic > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> writes:
>>>
>>>> The 182RG, the REAL airplane, has enough pitch trim to maintain
>>>> slow flight just above the stall.
>>>
>>> I'll continue to experiment.
>>>
>>
>> The trim on sims behaves nothing like it does in the real airplane
>> almost to the point of having a different purpose.
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> Coaching your little brother a bit. How nice! Did you two kiss and
> make up?
>

Oh ouch.

You really know how to get to me, don;t you?

Oh wait..


Bertie
>

"Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in
:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Mxsmanic > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>>>
>>>> I've flown a few that couldn't even be trimmed for slow flight or
>>>> approach ( pre war stuff) The trim was apparently only considered
>>>> to be useful for cruise.
>>>
>>> Interesting. I was flying my simulated Cessna 182 and it didn't
>>> seem like the pitch trim fully deflected the elevators even with the
>>> trim all the way over (that is, I could still move the yoke to get
>>> even further deflection). It sounds like this is true to life.
>>
>> Nothing about a sim is true to life. It's a toy. Different airplanes
>> have different authorits. i can loop my Citabira with the pitch trim.
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> YEAH!!!! Sure ya can lamer.


As if your belief one way or another makes a difference.

Bertie

"Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in news:HncRj.58645$QC.35221
@newsfe20.lga:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in
>> :
>>
>>>
>>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>>> .. .
>>>> Mxsmanic > wrote in
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've flown a few that couldn't even be trimmed for slow flight or
>>>>>> approach ( pre war stuff) The trim was apparently only considered
>>>>>> to be useful for cruise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting. I was flying my simulated Cessna 182 and it didn't
>>>>> seem like the pitch trim fully deflected the elevators even with
the
>>>>> trim all the way over (that is, I could still move the yoke to get
>>>>> even further deflection). It sounds like this is true to life.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing about a sim is true to life. It's a toy. Different
airplanes
>>>> have different authorits. i can loop my Citabira with the pitch
trim.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bertie
>>>
>>> YEAH!!!! Sure ya can lamer.
>>
>>
>> As if your belief one way or another makes a difference.
>>
>> Bertie
>>
>
> Yeah, no ****. As if yours does either wannabe.
>
>

Mine? mine doesn't matter at all...Only your performance matters...


Bertie

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
...
> "Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in
> :
>
>>
>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>> Mxsmanic > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I've flown a few that couldn't even be trimmed for slow flight or
>>>>> approach ( pre war stuff) The trim was apparently only considered
>>>>> to be useful for cruise.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting. I was flying my simulated Cessna 182 and it didn't
>>>> seem like the pitch trim fully deflected the elevators even with the
>>>> trim all the way over (that is, I could still move the yoke to get
>>>> even further deflection). It sounds like this is true to life.
>>>
>>> Nothing about a sim is true to life. It's a toy. Different airplanes
>>> have different authorits. i can loop my Citabira with the pitch trim.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bertie
>>
>> YEAH!!!! Sure ya can lamer.
>
>
> As if your belief one way or another makes a difference.
>
> Bertie
>

Yeah, no ****. As if yours does either wannabe.

"Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in message
...
>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in
>> :
>>
>>>
>>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>>> .. .
>>>> Mxsmanic > wrote in
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I've flown a few that couldn't even be trimmed for slow flight or
>>>>>> approach ( pre war stuff) The trim was apparently only considered
>>>>>> to be useful for cruise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting. I was flying my simulated Cessna 182 and it didn't
>>>>> seem like the pitch trim fully deflected the elevators even with the
>>>>> trim all the way over (that is, I could still move the yoke to get
>>>>> even further deflection). It sounds like this is true to life.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing about a sim is true to life. It's a toy. Different airplanes
>>>> have different authorits. i can loop my Citabira with the pitch trim.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bertie
>>>
>>> YEAH!!!! Sure ya can lamer.
>>
>>
>> As if your belief one way or another makes a difference.
>>
>> Bertie
>>
>
> Yeah, no ****. As if yours does either wannabe.
>
Well, Max, in addition to my other doubts, I now doubt that you ever even
flew a "thrown" model as a kid!

Peter

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in
:

> "Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>>>> .. .
>>>>> Mxsmanic > wrote in
>>>>> :
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bertie the Bunyip writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've flown a few that couldn't even be trimmed for slow flight
>>>>>>> or approach ( pre war stuff) The trim was apparently only
>>>>>>> considered to be useful for cruise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting. I was flying my simulated Cessna 182 and it didn't
>>>>>> seem like the pitch trim fully deflected the elevators even with
>>>>>> the trim all the way over (that is, I could still move the yoke
>>>>>> to get even further deflection). It sounds like this is true to
>>>>>> life.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nothing about a sim is true to life. It's a toy. Different
>>>>> airplanes have different authorits. i can loop my Citabira with
>>>>> the pitch trim.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bertie
>>>>
>>>> YEAH!!!! Sure ya can lamer.
>>>
>>>
>>> As if your belief one way or another makes a difference.
>>>
>>> Bertie
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, no ****. As if yours does either wannabe.
>>
> Well, Max, in addition to my other doubts, I now doubt that you ever
> even flew a "thrown" model as a kid!

They're properly called a Hand Launched Glider, or HLG or "chuck"
glider.


Bertie

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:09:16 -0800, Scott Skylane
> wrote:

>Stealth Pilot wrote:
>/snip/
>> trim has nothing to do with the movement limits on control surfaces.
>>
>/snip/
>
>Stealth,
>
>This is not universally true. On the Douglas DC-6, for instance,
>elevator "up" travel is limited by the elevator trim position. Dialing
>in the last 5 degrees of nose up trim allows an extra 3 degrees of
>elevator "up" travel. This was done to limit elevator "up" movement
>with aft CG loading conditions.
>
>Happy Flying!
>Scott Skylane

ok you successfully cite the one instance possibly :-) I defer to your
knowledge of the obscure.

stops of the type I mentioned are a mandated requirement in my country
for the environment I play in.

Stealth Pilot

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 10:39:26 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>On Apr 26, 3:56 pm, Buttman > wrote:
>
>> "supposed to", but doesn't always. I've flown planes (especially cessnas
>> with their crappy cereal-box-toy-quality plastic stall horns) that don't go
>> off at all, but will test fine on the ground.
>
> That's not hard to fix. The plastic fitting inside the leading
>edge cracks and leaks. Sometimes the sun's heat warps and shrinks the
>fitting so that it no longer seals against the LE and leaks at that
>point, too. Any leakage will kill the horn. The horn itself has a
>little replaceable reed in it, costs something like 79 cents from
>Cessna. And I think that leaky cabin doors sometimes have something to
>do with it; the horn uses suction to drive it, and a leaky door (among
>other things) can drop the cabin pressure a little, reducing the
>differential so that the horn doesn't sound well. The older and better
>system (still used on more expensive Cessnas and other airplanes) has
>the vane that works a $300 microswitch assembly to fire an electric
>horn. The microswitch gets dust in it and doesn't contact properly, so
>you soak it in some brake cleaner or isopropyl and blow it out,
>clicking it all the while.
>
> Dan

$300 ????????????

the microswitch in my Tailwind cost $1.25 from Tandy. it is held in
with tape to make a jamb fit.
been working perfectly for 300 hours flying.

Stealth Pilot

"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:09:16 -0800, Scott Skylane
> > wrote:
>
>>Stealth Pilot wrote:
>>/snip/
>>> trim has nothing to do with the movement limits on control surfaces.
>>>
>>/snip/
>>
>>Stealth,
>>
>>This is not universally true. On the Douglas DC-6, for instance,
>>elevator "up" travel is limited by the elevator trim position. Dialing
>>in the last 5 degrees of nose up trim allows an extra 3 degrees of
>>elevator "up" travel. This was done to limit elevator "up" movement
>>with aft CG loading conditions.
>>
>>Happy Flying!
>>Scott Skylane
>
> ok you successfully cite the one instance possibly :-) I defer to your
> knowledge of the obscure.
>
> stops of the type I mentioned are a mandated requirement in my country
> for the environment I play in.
>
> Stealth Pilot

Not nearly so obscure as you sugest. Aircraft with a fully trimming
stabilizer have a result result of adding to the effective elevator
authority--examples are the Piper Cub and all of the "straight tail"
Mooneys.

Peter

On 2008-04-28, Stealth Pilot > wrote:
> $300 ????????????
>
> the microswitch in my Tailwind cost $1.25 from Tandy. it is held in
> with tape to make a jamb fit.
> been working perfectly for 300 hours flying.

That's the difference between a certified aircraft (the Cessna) and an
experimental/amateur built (where you don't have to use approved parts,
just a part fit for purpose).

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

On Apr 28, 9:36 am, Stealth Pilot >
wrote:

> $300 ????????????
>
> the microswitch in my Tailwind cost $1.25 from Tandy. it is held in
> with tape to make a jamb fit.
> been working perfectly for 300 hours flying.
>
> Stealth Pilot

Works for a Tailwind, a homebuilt. Ain't legal in a certified
airplane, since the regs demand that the parts as listed in the
manufacturer's parts manual be used, and they know that, so they
charge lots for them.
So that's why my own airplane is a homebuilt.

Dan

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2008-04-28, Stealth Pilot > wrote:
>> $300 ????????????
>>
>> the microswitch in my Tailwind cost $1.25 from Tandy. it is held in
>> with tape to make a jamb fit.
>> been working perfectly for 300 hours flying.
>
> That's the difference between a certified aircraft (the Cessna) and an
> experimental/amateur built (where you don't have to use approved parts,
> just a part fit for purpose).
>
> --
> From the sunny Isle of Man.
> Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

This is an interesting issue, and the real answer is not necessarily
intuitive. In a type certified aircraft, the switch would need to be have
appropriate paperwork with a chain of custody attesting that it meets the
appropriate standards; and may need to be installed by an airframe mechanic.

I have been away from that industry for about twenty years, so some of the
regulations have changed, and was a radio repairman (rather than a mechanic)
at the time. However, for anyone operating a type certified aircraft, who
really wants to know the "straight and skinny" on this sort of issue, the
place to start in the USA is your local FSDO--before you do anything to the
aircraft. Ask for the Safety Program Manager for Airworthiness and he
should be able to point you to the correct office and/or litterature.

The point is that a common electrical part probably does not need to come
from the airframe manufacturer; but it is not "free stock" either. However,
don't be surprised if the airframe manufacturer turns out to be the best and
most economical source--when I was a radio repairman, the avionics
manufacturers were frequently the best and most economical sources of
standard parts for their equipment.

Peter

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:43:49 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
> wrote:

>"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:09:16 -0800, Scott Skylane
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Stealth Pilot wrote:
>>>/snip/
>>>> trim has nothing to do with the movement limits on control surfaces.
>>>>
>>>/snip/
>>>
>>>Stealth,
>>>
>>>This is not universally true. On the Douglas DC-6, for instance,
>>>elevator "up" travel is limited by the elevator trim position. Dialing
>>>in the last 5 degrees of nose up trim allows an extra 3 degrees of
>>>elevator "up" travel. This was done to limit elevator "up" movement
>>>with aft CG loading conditions.
>>>
>>>Happy Flying!
>>>Scott Skylane
>>
>> ok you successfully cite the one instance possibly :-) I defer to your
>> knowledge of the obscure.
>>
>> stops of the type I mentioned are a mandated requirement in my country
>> for the environment I play in.
>>
>> Stealth Pilot
>
>Not nearly so obscure as you sugest. Aircraft with a fully trimming
>stabilizer have a result result of adding to the effective elevator
>authority--examples are the Piper Cub and all of the "straight tail"
>Mooneys.
>
>Peter
>
>
ermmmm. trim has nothing to do with the control surface stops. they
are fixed to the airframe and work as their name suggests.

Stealth Pilot

"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:43:49 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:09:16 -0800, Scott Skylane
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Stealth Pilot wrote:
>>>>/snip/
>>>>> trim has nothing to do with the movement limits on control surfaces.
>>>>>
>>>>/snip/
>>>>
>>>>Stealth,
>>>>
>>>>This is not universally true. On the Douglas DC-6, for instance,
>>>>elevator "up" travel is limited by the elevator trim position. Dialing
>>>>in the last 5 degrees of nose up trim allows an extra 3 degrees of
>>>>elevator "up" travel. This was done to limit elevator "up" movement
>>>>with aft CG loading conditions.
>>>>
>>>>Happy Flying!
>>>>Scott Skylane
>>>
>>> ok you successfully cite the one instance possibly :-) I defer to your
>>> knowledge of the obscure.
>>>
>>> stops of the type I mentioned are a mandated requirement in my country
>>> for the environment I play in.
>>>
>>> Stealth Pilot
>>
>>Not nearly so obscure as you sugest. Aircraft with a fully trimming
>>stabilizer have a result result of adding to the effective elevator
>>authority--examples are the Piper Cub and all of the "straight tail"
>>Mooneys.
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>
> ermmmm. trim has nothing to do with the control surface stops. they
> are fixed to the airframe and work as their name suggests.
>
> Stealth Pilot

OK, I was thinking of the effect rather than the mechanism of changing the
limit of travel relative to a fixed stabilizer.

Peter

Peter Dohm writes:

> ... when I was a radio repairman, the avionics
> manufacturers were frequently the best and most economical sources of
> standard parts for their equipment.

So how did the other sources (if there were any) stay in business?

On Apr 30, 12:44*am, "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
> "Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:43:49 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
> > > wrote:
>
> >>"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:09:16 -0800, Scott Skylane
> >>> > wrote:
>
> >>>>Stealth Pilot wrote:
> >>>>/snip/
> >>>>> trim has nothing to do with the movement limits on control surfaces.
>
> >>>>/snip/
>
> >>>>Stealth,
>
> >>>>This is not universally true. *On the Douglas DC-6, for instance,
> >>>>elevator "up" travel is limited by the elevator trim position. *Dialing
> >>>>in the last 5 degrees of nose up trim allows an extra 3 degrees of
> >>>>elevator "up" travel. *This was done to limit elevator "up" movement
> >>>>with aft CG loading conditions.
>
> >>>>Happy Flying!
> >>>>Scott Skylane
>
> >>> ok you successfully cite the one instance possibly :-) I defer to your
> >>> knowledge of the obscure.
>
> >>> stops of the type I mentioned are a mandated requirement in my country
> >>> for the environment I play in.
>
> >>> Stealth Pilot
>
> >>Not nearly so obscure as you sugest. *Aircraft with a fully trimming
> >>stabilizer have a result result of adding to the effective elevator
> >>authority--examples are the Piper Cub and all of the "straight tail"
> >>Mooneys.
>
> >>Peter
>
> > ermmmm. trim has nothing to do with the control surface stops. they
> > are fixed to the airframe and work as their name suggests.
>
> > Stealth Pilot
>
> OK, I was thinking of the effect rather than the mechanism of changing the
> limit of travel relative to a fixed stabilizer.
>

I don't follow this. The trim surface operates in the opposite
direction to the trimmed surface and takes area away from it. Explain
please?

Cheers

"WingFlaps" > wrote in message
...
On Apr 30, 12:44 am, "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
> "Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:43:49 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
> > > wrote:
>
> >>"Stealth Pilot" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>> On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:09:16 -0800, Scott Skylane
> >>> > wrote:
>
> >>>>Stealth Pilot wrote:
> >>>>/snip/
> >>>>> trim has nothing to do with the movement limits on control surfaces.
>
> >>>>/snip/
>
> >>>>Stealth,
>
> >>>>This is not universally true. On the Douglas DC-6, for instance,
> >>>>elevator "up" travel is limited by the elevator trim position. Dialing
> >>>>in the last 5 degrees of nose up trim allows an extra 3 degrees of
> >>>>elevator "up" travel. This was done to limit elevator "up" movement
> >>>>with aft CG loading conditions.
>
> >>>>Happy Flying!
> >>>>Scott Skylane
>
> >>> ok you successfully cite the one instance possibly :-) I defer to your
> >>> knowledge of the obscure.
>
> >>> stops of the type I mentioned are a mandated requirement in my country
> >>> for the environment I play in.
>
> >>> Stealth Pilot
>
> >>Not nearly so obscure as you sugest. Aircraft with a fully trimming
> >>stabilizer have a result result of adding to the effective elevator
> >>authority--examples are the Piper Cub and all of the "straight tail"
> >>Mooneys.
>
> >>Peter
>
> > ermmmm. trim has nothing to do with the control surface stops. they
> > are fixed to the airframe and work as their name suggests.
>
> > Stealth Pilot
>
> OK, I was thinking of the effect rather than the mechanism of changing the
> limit of travel relative to a fixed stabilizer.
>

I don't follow this. The trim surface operates in the opposite
direction to the trimmed surface and takes area away from it. Explain
please?

Cheers

There was a brief discussion of elevator trim systems, the such that the
elevator trim setting also modified the stop/limit setting of the elevator.
I mentioned the case of the fully trimmng stabilizer, which also has
aerodynamic the effect of modifying the effective limit of the
elevator--even though the mechanical limit relative to the horizontal
stabilizer would typically remain unchanged. However that is a different
type of control system, just as a fully flying stabilizer (a/k/a stabilator)
is a third type.

I presume that there are other aircraft, beside the DC-6/DC-7 already
mentioned, on which the trim setting directly modifies the mechanical limits
of the elevator control; but the issue appears to be beyond the research
that my present curiosity can justify--and, in that regard, it appears that
I am not alone.

Peter

On Apr 29, 2:24 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:

> I don't follow this. The trim surface operates in the opposite
> direction to the trimmed surface and takes area away from it. Explain
> please?
>
> Cheers

The trim tab generates a force that moves the trailing edge of
the control surface. So if you trim nose-up, you'll be moving the tab
downward, where it forces the elevator up. Next time you fly an
airplane with an elevator trim tab, like a Cessna, hold the yoke back
so you can see the trim tab, and roll in nose-up trim and see which
direction the tab moves.
See this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_tab

An excerpt:
"When a trim tab is employed, it is moved into the slipstream
opposite to the control surface's desired deflection. For example, in
order to trim an elevator to hold the nose down, the elevator's trim
tab will actually rise up into the slipstream. The increased pressure
on top of the trim tab surface caused by raising it will then deflect
the entire elevator slab down slightly, causing the tail to rise and
the aircraft's nose to move down."

Or page 169 of this:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=C8ZUBjtLXjEC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=elevator+trim+tab&source=web&ots=x-CMg6i_Yn&sig=5CFS1273AHHn4olFYnx1vTlVZUY&hl=en

Dan

> "WingFlaps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> I don't follow this. The trim surface operates in the opposite
> direction to the trimmed surface and takes area away from it. Explain
> please?
>
> Cheers
>
Sorry, I misread the question and answered mainly based upon the location in
the thread.

You are correct that some effective area is taken away, but the amount of
"lost" area is small and easily taken into account in the design--whereas
the reduction of pilot workload is great. Also, under normal conditions,
the limitation on elevator authority is the setting of the mechanical stop
rather than the area.

Peter

On Apr 30, 9:37*am, wrote:
> On Apr 29, 2:24 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:
>
> > I don't follow this. The trim surface operates in the opposite
> > direction to the trimmed surface and takes area away from it. Explain
> > please?
>
> > Cheers
>
> * * * *The trim tab generates a force that moves the trailing edge of
> the control surface. So if you trim nose-up, you'll be moving the tab
> downward, where it forces the elevator up.

Yes that is exactly what I said. So, does the trim actually improve
control responsiveness or not?

Cheers

WingFlaps > wrote in news:ad8fc9c9-57cb-4733-9e97-
:

> On Apr 30, 9:37*am, wrote:
>> On Apr 29, 2:24 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:
>>
>> > I don't follow this. The trim surface operates in the opposite
>> > direction to the trimmed surface and takes area away from it.
Explain
>> > please?
>>
>> > Cheers
>>
>> * * * *The trim tab generates a force that moves the trailing edge
> of
>> the control surface. So if you trim nose-up, you'll be moving the tab
>> downward, where it forces the elevator up.
>
> Yes that is exactly what I said. So, does the trim actually improve
> control responsiveness or not?

Do you mean if oyu move the trim tab in the same direction as the
elevator? IN general, yes, it will.


Bertie
>
> Cheers
>
>
>

On Apr 30, 11:05*am, "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
> > "WingFlaps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > I don't follow this. The trim surface operates in the opposite
> > direction to the trimmed surface and takes area away from it. Explain
> > please?
>
> > Cheers
>
> Sorry, I misread the question and answered mainly based upon the location in
> the thread.
>
> You are correct that some effective area is taken away, but the amount of
> "lost" area is small and easily taken into account in the design--whereas
> the reduction of pilot workload is great. *Also, under normal conditions,
> the limitation on elevator authority is the setting of the mechanical stop
> rather than the area.
>

Ah, OK thanks.

Cheers

On Apr 30, 12:12*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> WingFlaps > wrote in news:ad8fc9c9-57cb-4733-9e97-
> :
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 30, 9:37*am, wrote:
> >> On Apr 29, 2:24 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:
>
> >> > I don't follow this. The trim surface operates in the opposite
> >> > direction to the trimmed surface and takes area away from it.
> Explain
> >> > please?
>
> >> > Cheers
>
> >> * * * *The trim tab generates a force that moves the trailing edge
> > *of
> >> the control surface. So if you trim nose-up, you'll be moving the tab
> >> downward, where it forces the elevator up.
>
> > Yes that is exactly what I said. So, does the trim actually improve
> > control responsiveness or not?
>
> Do you mean if oyu move the trim tab in the same direction as the
> elevator? IN general, yes, it will.
>
> Bertie
>

Thanks, I guess it adds a bit of camber in that direction and takes it
away in the opposite direction...

Cheers

WingFlaps > wrote in news:8107e6ea-0c5c-460c-8b38-
:

> On Apr 30, 12:12*pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> WingFlaps > wrote in news:ad8fc9c9-57cb-4733-
9e97-
>> :
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 30, 9:37*am, wrote:
>> >> On Apr 29, 2:24 pm, WingFlaps > wrote:
>>
>> >> > I don't follow this. The trim surface operates in the opposite
>> >> > direction to the trimmed surface and takes area away from it.
>> Explain
>> >> > please?
>>
>> >> > Cheers
>>
>> >> * * * *The trim tab generates a force that moves the trailing e
> dge
>> > *of
>> >> the control surface. So if you trim nose-up, you'll be moving the
tab
>> >> downward, where it forces the elevator up.
>>
>> > Yes that is exactly what I said. So, does the trim actually improve
>> > control responsiveness or not?
>>
>> Do you mean if oyu move the trim tab in the same direction as the
>> elevator? IN general, yes, it will.
>>
>> Bertie
>>
>
> Thanks, I guess it adds a bit of camber in that direction and takes it
> away in the opposite direction...

Yes, but of course there would be exceptions. Lots of lightplanes with
stabilators have an anti balance tabe ( more commonly known,
incorrectly, as an anti servo tab) which increases authority and adds
feel to the control stick. I once flew a homebuilt Pitts that had no
tabs on the elevators at all. The pitch control was indescribably light.
Scarily light. I and others found the airplane such a handful that the
owner added a trim/anti-balance tab.

Bertie

On Apr 29, 6:12 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:

> Do you mean if oyu move the trim tab in the same direction as the
> elevator? IN general, yes, it will.

In general. Control surface deflections are part of the type
certificate data, and it's to make sure there's enough control
authority without stalling the control surface. Too much travel would
do that, and I think that having an elevator tab full-up, say, and
then using full-up elevator, could start the tab stalling a little,
maybe enough to stall the elevator itself. Never seen it though.
I remember a story by some guy who found that his elevator was
jammed somehow and he couldn't get full up travel while in flight. He
was able to get enough authority to flare using some power and full
nose-down trim, which raised the tab and helped raise the nose, though
he had to pull pretty hard against that trim.

Dan

wrote in news:96353123-74d2-46a1-a81a-
:

> On Apr 29, 6:12 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>
>> Do you mean if oyu move the trim tab in the same direction as the
>> elevator? IN general, yes, it will.
>
> In general. Control surface deflections are part of the type
> certificate data, and it's to make sure there's enough control
> authority without stalling the control surface. Too much travel would
> do that, and I think that having an elevator tab full-up, say, and
> then using full-up elevator, could start the tab stalling a little,
> maybe enough to stall the elevator itself. Never seen it though.
> I remember a story by some guy who found that his elevator was
> jammed somehow and he couldn't get full up travel while in flight. He
> was able to get enough authority to flare using some power and full
> nose-down trim, which raised the tab and helped raise the nose, though
> he had to pull pretty hard against that trim.
>


I know someone who had an elevator jam (no up) after doing aerobatics in
a glider. A Blanik. The rear seat cushion had come loose and jammed the
stick slightly forward. He managed to land using the elevator trim in
it's reverse sense. I'm sure it happened fairly often in combat in WW2.
After that it would have been all boosted controls anyway..

Bertie

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
.. .
> wrote in news:96353123-74d2-46a1-a81a-
> :
>
>> On Apr 29, 6:12 pm, Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>>
>>> Do you mean if oyu move the trim tab in the same direction as the
>>> elevator? IN general, yes, it will.
>>
>> In general. Control surface deflections are part of the type
>> certificate data, and it's to make sure there's enough control
>> authority without stalling the control surface. Too much travel would
>> do that, and I think that having an elevator tab full-up, say, and
>> then using full-up elevator, could start the tab stalling a little,
>> maybe enough to stall the elevator itself. Never seen it though.
>> I remember a story by some guy who found that his elevator was
>> jammed somehow and he couldn't get full up travel while in flight. He
>> was able to get enough authority to flare using some power and full
>> nose-down trim, which raised the tab and helped raise the nose, though
>> he had to pull pretty hard against that trim.
>>
>
>
> I know someone who had an elevator jam (no up) after doing aerobatics in
> a glider. A Blanik. The rear seat cushion had come loose and jammed the
> stick slightly forward. He managed to land using the elevator trim in
> it's reverse sense. I'm sure it happened fairly often in combat in WW2.
> After that it would have been all boosted controls anyway..
>
> Bertie
>

Sure you did Bertie, you know everyone, have done everything, have seen
everything,,,,, except the way we see you.

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
...
> "Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote in
> :
>
>>
>> "Buttman" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>>
>>>> Buttman > wrote in
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>> WingFlaps wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 27, 7:03 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>>>>>>> I just tried a few experiments
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, that doesn't sound right.
>>>>>> The stall horn is supposed to sound before the stall speed is
>>>>>> reached.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> "supposed to", but doesn't always. I've flown planes (especially
>>>>> cessnas with their crappy cereal-box-toy-quality plastic stall
>>>>> horns) that don't go off at all, but will test fine on the ground.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What, you didn't stick chewing gum in them to fail them so your
>>>> students would learn what it was like when they failed?
>>>>
>>>> Bertie
>>>
>>> Oh bertie, you're such a card
>>
>> Na, not really. Just a self made prick.
>>
>
> Moi? never. Nope. I just treat p